Systemd

Going through the whole discussion here:

https://framadate.org/shrov71cur7xvsks

I thought one user raised a very clever point.

Can’t somebody fork systemd, sanitize it, modularize it (reducing interdependence of the modules), and make it sanely coexist with other software ?

Please try to avoid a debian fork as much as possible. If unavoidable, track debian closely, and make only the changes that are absolutely necessary - Otherwise, I fear that this path will end up having the systemd developers as only winners, and nothing but losers else, in particular: Debian, its derivatives/forks, its users and its community in general.

Probably as time goes by some people would try that road. I mean it’s open source and it’s more logical to try and fix the problem where it stands instead of porting and repackaging all the damage it does afterwards.

I am typing this as a user who has no inside knowledge, so it’s more of a strategical philosophical discussion.

Not a pro or against, but rather for those who agree it should be fixed, overcome and what methods could be used for this.

What do you recon ?

I will heat it up with this :smiley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqiQBmS-rJY

@ dubioza kolektiv
Cute funky musicians, although a bit too intrusive for my taste in music :wink:

@ systemd
About it long time ago is told everything that could be told, and all is well known.
What lies ahead is to seriously approach the work as necessary to set systemd where it belongs … in addition to other solutions, not above all solutions.

Well, in a lack of better words, “when you allow a domesticated wolf to act like a real wolf, and do nothing about it, what stops him from chewing on you when he sees fit? And when it gets to far, what can you do to stop it!?”

All the crap that systemd & crew are doing, is because they were allowed to ( distro’s be like “we’ll take all the sh*t, just to have that one xyz feature” type of thing ). Reaction came to late, and it was mostly a rant from a non-dev angry mob, with very little concrete action.

So, expanding on what @Dragan said, I guess that systemd needs some serious bashing from the distros themselves ( Linus included ), forcing them to either give up, or start doing a proper job with it, 'cause their current attitude of “we are the kings of the hill, and gonna rule all ya fools” ain’t gonna cut it…

@fork, there is one :slight_smile:

Thanks @Filip I somehow overlooked uselessd in the past but will try to compile and configure on a spare machine out of curiosity.

Will post some logs if it’s of interest to someone.

What’s done is done and most likely the devs of systemd are just well-paid puppets of the corporations behind them. Just like the tens of thousands of “euro-atlantic NGO experts”, who occupied public opinion and decision making, serving their corresponding “philanthropic sponsors”…

You got my thought on this one. If they have the channels and influence to push it through the major distros and applications then forking systemd itself could be a very smart move because it will require less development and would in turn keep the community together.

Cool!
Looking forward to hear how it went/how it runs! :slight_smile:

@fork:

I agree. However, there is one downside. It’s, unfortunatelly yet another dividing factor in the Linux ecosystem…

I followed this guide:

https://bitbucket.org/Tarnyko/uselessd/src/0d2352772b0ddab2f994f8c6a27b2a4a8267c60f/docs/INSTALL_INSTRUCTIONS_LINUX.txt?at=linux-devel

It all went fine, compiled and configured after installing a few dependencies - namely inttool, gperf and libcap if not mistaken. This was on Trios a4. After testing with the default preferences mentioned there it passed 25 out of 26 configure check tests.

But… it all ends up with kernel panic after reboot. I suppose this is because I don’t know much about OpenRC and how init systems work in general. After that I have no problem seeing grub and choosing Trios recovery mode. I am in console mode with no lightdm but I can continue the tests.

Haven’t checked those two yet and they seem very related:

–with-rc-local-script-path-start=
–with-rc-local-script-path-stop=

Would you suggest any value in there for next tests ?

The kernel panic seems due to the fact that nothing is found there:
init=/lib/systemd/uselessd

And indeed there was nothing there. I copied the whole uselessd folder and still the same. I am not sure if the kernel panic attack is not due to conflict between OpenRC and uselessd.

Will post all the logs tomorrow for evaluation.

The dividing factor is a fact, unfortunately… But I would rather prefer systemd being hacked all the way instead of people escaping the boat and overall separation in the Debian world… “Their stones on their heads” as they say. Of course I am grateful for all routes tried at the moment and no solution should be underestimated. Actually it would be much better to see OpenRC taking the lead, but GNU/Linux is not as it was in the past… there are now corporations and big money involved in all aspects.

I

All init scripts are in/etc/init.d folder, so both path values for configure should be like this:

–with-rc-local-script-path-start=/etc/init.d
–with-rc-local-script-path-stop=/etc/init.d

In order to avoid kernel panic, try to add entry in grub line:
init=/sbin/init

Thanks @Dragan !

Will try those tomorrow and post output.

I guess:

  1. It wasn’t built properly ( missing binary “/lib/systemd/uselessd”, or you maybe forgot to run “make install” )
  2. That binary is in another location ( unlikely, but try locating it )
  3. Or, as @Dragan said, it’s symlinked or built as “init” @/sbin

Anyway, do as @Dragan said.
If it boots with openrc, then it’s either 1 or 2^. :slight_smile:

TIP:
You don’t need to modify “/etc/default/grub” in order to switch to another init for testing ( @6. in uselessd how-to ).
All you need to do is edit the boot entry in GRUB itself before booting:

  1. Select TRIOS & press “e”
  2. Find the line begining with “linux”, and after root UUID, just type in “init=/whatever/location/it/is” ( init=/sbin/init or /lib/systemd or /sbin/openrc … )
  3. Hit “F10” to boot. :slight_smile:

Screenshot - 01122015 - 12:54:31 AM.png
If it works you can then set it in “/etc/default/grub” to keep it permanent. If it doesn’t, you just reboot and do nothing, because setting init directly @grub menu doesn’t survive to the next boot.

TIP2:
In TRIOS recovery mode you can get to DE, by logging in to console and typing “startx” :slight_smile:

UPDATE:

Just tried it. It runs, kind of…
I guess that some of the “*nosystemd” packages are messing with it, besides not being configured at all for Debian…
Boots to console, no hostname set, no lightdm, no network, semi-working VBox Guest Addition, shutdown/reboot non-funcional…

uselessd.png
[SIZE=3]^lightdm & XFCE are started manually ( “startx” or “sudo systemctl start lightdm.service”[/SIZE] [SIZE=3])[/SIZE]

All in all, it needs some TLC/packaging/configuration to get anywhere close to “normal” funcionality… :slight_smile:

P.S. Maybe you have actually missed the “sudo make install” step? :slight_smile:

Yep, that was indeed the case. I have reconfigured and recompiled and can boot with /sbin/init which loads OpenRC.

Entries /sbin/openrc and /lib/systemd/uselessd end up with kernel panic so I guess I messed up things along the way. Maybe the symlink to /sbin/init is not present.

Anyways, thank you for the very helpful tips and tricks on booting. Considering your experience with uselessd I take it it’s at a very early development stage, yet still booting :slight_smile:

On a side note what are these nosystemd packages ? Do they come from Devuan or another branch of the resistance front ?

These are necessary packages that allow complete removal of systemd and associated libraries (except udev, of course…)
Most of them are made by Adam Borowski from Debian, and few by TRIOS team :slight_smile:

Debian jessie with sysV
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd

False advertising…

“This probably won’t work if selecting one of the desktop environments that require systemd specific features however”

Who needs DE… this is 80’s terminal is your friend… yaaaay :cvike:

Gospodo, jedna mala digresija, ako ne zamerite. Ko bi hteo meni, laiku (prosečnom? korisniku), da što jednostavnije objasni najbitnije razlike između OS-a sa systemd ili bez systemd, te da li je to za nas obične korisnike od bitnog značaja ili je pak stvar principijelne prirode, a u smislu naturanja nečeg zajednici kao takvoj. Ako je ovo preveliko skretanje sa teme, prebacite me na neki podforum, ali bih svakako voleo da dobijem, što je jednostavnije moguće formulisan odgovor, čisto da orijentaciono shvatim o čemu se radi (ako uopšte uspem išta da shvatim?)

Probaću da odgovorim kontra-pitanjima…zašto ti uopšte koristiš linux?
Zašto nisi zadovoljan rešenjem kojim je M$ uspeo da usreći ceo svet?
Funkcionalno, za krajnjeg korisnika apsolutno nikakvog značaja nema da li će neki text napisati u Wordu ili Writeru, ili će neku tabelu sastaviti u Excelu ili Calcu, zar ne?
Mislim, ako su samo taj text i tabela bitni, kao što i jesu u krajnjoj liniji?
Možda najvažnija osobina koja je ugrađena u samo naše postojanje je prirodan otpor prema ograničavanju slobode, bez obzira na obrazloženja onih koji nam tu slobodu ograničavaju, i bez obzira na napor koji nam ukidanje tih ograničenja ponekad donosi.
Da nema tog otpora i nepristajanja na nametnute uslove u bilo kojoj oblasti naših života, ne bi bilo ni progresa kao takvog.

Da nema tog otpora i nepristajanja na nametnute uslove u bilo kojoj oblasti naših života, ne bi bilo ni progresa kao takvog.

Dragane, ako sam dobro shvatio stvar je principa slobodnog izbora kao takvog, a manje je bitno, da li je “systemd” sastavni deo ili ne?

p.s-
Razlog mog napuštanja MS jeste taj da mogu moj laptop da nosim sa sobom i da ga koristim gde god hoću, jer sam legalan (volim taj osećaj), a drugo, pošto sam po prirodi znatiželjan, linux svet je beskonačan…

Mislim da si upravo odgovorio na svoje pitanje :slight_smile:
Upravo je sloboda izbora suština otpora prema systemd.
Kao što ti voliš osećaj slobode sa svojim laptopom, tako i ostali linux korisnici vole osećaj slobode da koriste rešenja koja oni žele, a ne koja im systemd nameće.