Voting about Systemd

Here https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd are some hints.

init section in kernel command line is not mandatory?

No, it is not. If no init is specified, the kernel will default to [FONT=‘comic sans ms’]/sbin/init. That’s why systemd-sysv, sysvinit-core, et al. make /sbin/init a symlink to the respective PID1-binary.[/FONT]

Ok, this is true…but:

[email protected]:/home/dragan/Desktop# apt remove --purge systemd
Reading package lists… Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information… Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
liblistaller-glib0 libpackagekit-glib2-16 libsystemd-login0 libupower-glib1
Use ‘apt-get autoremove’ to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
browser-plugin-packagekit* colord* gnome-bluetooth* gnome-control-center*
gnome-disk-utility* gnome-packagekit* gnome-packagekit-session*
gnome-packagekit-tools* gnome-settings-daemon* gnome-sushi*
gnome-user-share* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* libpam-systemd*
listaller* nautilus* network-manager* network-manager-gnome* packagekit*
packagekit-tools* policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* systemd* systemd-ui*
udisks2*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 63.8 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]


What about this?

I think you want to remove systemd-sysv instead of systemd. systemd-sysv provides systemd as PID 1 and systemd just provides the various systemd-* binaries.

GNOME requires logind, which is part of systemd. If you don’t want systemd as PID 1, you need to run logind under systemd-shim. So you need to install systemd-shim and then remove systemd-sysv.

Well, most of those packages depend (directly or indirectly) on [FONT=‘courier new’]libpam-systemd, which is needed for logind. Logind is a part of systemd (the project, not the init system) and thus of the systemd-package in Debian. If you want to remove the systemd-package, you therefore also remove logind. Gnome 3.14 depends on interfaces provided by logind[/FONT], so [FONT=‘courier new’]apt remove systemd also removes large parts of Gnome.[/FONT]
The real question is: Why do you want to remove the [FONT=‘courier new’]systemd-package? If you have sysvinit-core installed (and haven’t modified the kernel command line), the init-system part of systemd does not run. Only those parts of the [/FONT][FONT=‘courier new’]systemd-package that you obviously want to have installed (i.e. logind), are running. So why do you want to remove it?[/FONT]
[FONT=‘courier new’]Also: What do you want Debian to do about this? Gnome needs the logind-interfaces and there is no other implementation of them (yet). (There is systemd-shim[/FONT], which allows logind to run without having systemd as PID1, but you still need logind from the [FONT=‘courier new’]systemd-package.)[/FONT]

EDIT:
And if i want to really completely remove systemd, all traces, things are getting much much harder…practicaly impossible, if I dont want to destroy the whole sistem:

[email protected]:/home/dragan/Desktop# apt update
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates InRelease
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie InRelease
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/main Sources
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates InRelease
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/contrib Sources
Get:1 http://http.debian.net jessie/main Sources/DiffIndex [7,876 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports InRelease
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/non-free Sources
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/main amd64 Packages
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/contrib amd64 Packages
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/non-free amd64 Packages
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/contrib Translation-en
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/main Translation-en
Hit http://security.debian.org jessie/updates/non-free Translation-en
Get:2 http://http.debian.net jessie/main Translation-en/DiffIndex [7,876 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/non-free Sources
Get:3 http://http.debian.net jessie/non-free amd64 Packages/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Get:4 http://http.debian.net jessie/main amd64 Packages/DiffIndex [7,876 B]
Get:5 http://http.debian.net jessie/contrib Sources/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/main Sources
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/non-free amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/contrib Translation-en
Get:6 http://http.debian.net jessie/non-free Sources/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/main Translation-en
Get:7 http://http.debian.net jessie/contrib Translation-en/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Get:8 http://http.debian.net jessie/contrib amd64 Packages/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/contrib Sources
Get:9 http://http.debian.net jessie/non-free Translation-en/DiffIndex [7,819 B]
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/main amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/contrib Sources
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/contrib amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/non-free Sources
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/main Sources
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-updates/non-free Translation-en
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/non-free amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/main amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/contrib Translation-en
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/contrib amd64 Packages
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/non-free Translation-en
Hit http://http.debian.net jessie-backports/main Translation-en
Fetched 70.5 kB in 1s (40.9 kB/s)
Reading package lists… Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information… Done
All packages are up to date.
[email protected]:/home/dragan/Desktop#
[email protected]:/home/dragan/Desktop# apt remove --purge libsystemd0
Reading package lists… Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information… Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
acl apache2-bin apg appstream-index apt-show-versions audacious-plugins-data
cheese-common colord-data cracklib-runtime crda cryptsetup-bin cups-client
dleyna-server dns-root-data dnsmasq-base espeak-data evince-common
evince-gtk fonts-freefont-ttf gdisk gimp-data gir1.2-atk-1.0
gir1.2-atspi-2.0 gir1.2-clutter-1.0 gir1.2-clutter-gst-2.0 gir1.2-cogl-1.0
gir1.2-coglpango-1.0 gir1.2-evince-3.0 gir1.2-freedesktop
gir1.2-gdkpixbuf-2.0 gir1.2-glib-2.0 gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0
gir1.2-gst-plugins-base-1.0 gir1.2-gstreamer-1.0 gir1.2-gtk-3.0
gir1.2-gtkclutter-1.0 gir1.2-gtksource-3.0 gir1.2-javascriptcoregtk-3.0
gir1.2-json-1.0 gir1.2-notify-0.7 gir1.2-packagekitglib-1.0 gir1.2-pango-1.0
gir1.2-soup-2.4 gir1.2-vte-2.90 gir1.2-webkit-3.0 gir1.2-wnck-3.0
gkbd-capplet gnome-accessibility-themes gnome-commander-data
gnome-control-center-data gnome-desktop3-data gnome-online-accounts
gnome-packagekit-data gnome-themes-standard gnome-themes-standard-data
gstreamer0.10-nice gstreamer1.0-clutter gstreamer1.0-libav
gstreamer1.0-plugins-ugly gtk2-engines-pixbuf gvfs-common gvfs-libs hwdata
hyphen-en-us imagemagick-common iw liba52-0.7.4 libaacs0 libamd2.3.1
libao-common libao4 libappstream1 libapr1 libaprutil1
libaprutil1-dbd-sqlite3 libaprutil1-ldap libasn1-8-heimdal libatasmart4
libatk-adaptor libaudcore2 libaudio2 libbabl-0.1-0 libbasicusageenvironment0
libbinio1ldbl libbluetooth3 libbluray1 libbrlapi0.6 libbs2b0 libcamd2.3.1
libccolamd2.8.0 libcddb2 libcdio-cdda1 libcdio-paranoia1 libcdio13
libcholmod2.1.2 libchromaprint0 libck-connector0 libclutter-1.0-0
libclutter-1.0-common libclutter-gst-2.0-0 libclutter-gtk-1.0-0
libcogl-common libcogl-pango20 libcogl-path20 libcogl20 libcolord-gtk1
libcolorhug2 libcrack2 libcryptsetup4 libcrystalhd3 libcue1
libdjvulibre-text libdjvulibre21 libdleyna-connector-dbus-1.0-1
libdleyna-core-1.0-3 libdotconf0 libdvbpsi9 libebml4 libevdocument3-4
libevview3-3 libexempi3 libexiv2-13 libfam0 libfile-copy-recursive-perl
libfreerdp-cache1.1 libfreerdp-client1.1 libfreerdp-codec1.1
libfreerdp-common1.1.0 libfreerdp-core1.1 libfreerdp-crypto1.1
libfreerdp-gdi1.1 libfreerdp-locale1.1 libfreerdp-primitives1.1
libfreerdp-rail1.1 libfreerdp-utils1.1 libgadu3 libgail-3-0 libgail-common
libgd3 libgeocode-glib0 libgimp2.0 libgirepository-1.0-1 libgjs0e
libgles1-mesa libgles2-mesa libgmime-2.6-0 libgnome-bluetooth13
libgnome-desktop-3-10 libgnomekbd-common libgnomekbd8 libgoa-1.0-0b
libgoa-1.0-common libgoa-backend-1.0-1 libgpgme11 libgphoto2-6
libgphoto2-l10n libgphoto2-port10 libgrilo-0.2-1 libgroupsock1
libgssapi3-heimdal libgstreamer-plugins-bad1.0-0 libgtkmm-3.0-1 libguess1
libgupnp-dlna-2.0-3 libgupnp-igd-1.0-4 libgweather-3-6 libgweather-common
libgxps2 libhcrypto4-heimdal libheimbase1-heimdal libheimntlm0-heimdal
libhx509-5-heimdal libibus-1.0-5 libidl0 libieee1284-3 libinput5
libiptcdata0 libiso9660-8 libkpathsea6 libkrb5-26-heimdal libldb1
liblightdm-gobject-1-0 liblircclient0 liblistaller-glib0 liblivemedia23
liblouis-data liblouis2 liblqr-1-0 liblua5.1-0 liblua5.2-0 libmad0
libmagickcore-6.q16-2 libmagickwand-6.q16-2 libmatroska6 libmeanwhile1
libmediaart-1.0-0 libmjpegutils-2.1-0 libmng1 libmozjs-24-0 libmpeg2-4
libmpeg2encpp-2.1-0 libmpg123-0 libmplex2-2.1-0 libmtp-common libmtp-runtime
libmtp9 libmusicbrainz5-0 libndp0 libnetfilter-conntrack3 libnice10
libnl-route-3-200 libnm-glib-vpn1 libnm-glib4 libnm-gtk-common libnm-gtk0
libnm-util2 libnss-myhostname libntdb1 libopencore-amrnb0 libopencore-amrwb0
libopenobex1 libopenraw1 liborbit2 libpackagekit-glib2-16
libpackagekit-glib2-18 libpam-ck-connector libpanel-applet-4-0 libperl5.20
libpostproc52 libprotobuf-c1 libproxy-tools libpwquality-common
libpwquality1 libqt4-dbus libqt4-xml libqtcore4 libqtdbus4 libqtgui4
libquvi-scripts libquvi7 libreoffice libreoffice-gtk libreoffice-help-en-us
libresid-builder0c2a libroken18-heimdal librygel-core-2.4-2
librygel-renderer-2.4-2 librygel-server-2.4-2 libsane libsane-common
libsane-extras libsane-extras-common libsbc1 libshine3 libsidplay1
libsidplay2 libsidplayfp3 libsmbclient libsonic0 libspectre1 libspeechd2
libsrtp0 libsystemd-login0 libtalloc2 libteamdctl0 libtelepathy-glib0
libtevent0 libtotem-plparser18 libtracker-sparql-1.0-0 libtwolame0
libudisks2-0 libumfpack5.6.2 libupnp6 libupower-glib1 libusageenvironment1
libva-drm1 libva-x11-1 libvcdinfo0 libvlc5 libvlccore8 libvncclient0
libwacom-common libwacom2 libwbclient0 libwind0-heimdal libwinpr-crt0.1
libwinpr-crypto0.1 libwinpr-dsparse0.1 libwinpr-environment0.1
libwinpr-file0.1 libwinpr-handle0.1 libwinpr-heap0.1 libwinpr-input0.1
libwinpr-interlocked0.1 libwinpr-library0.1 libwinpr-path0.1
libwinpr-pool0.1 libwinpr-registry0.1 libwinpr-rpc0.1 libwinpr-sspi0.1
libwinpr-synch0.1 libwinpr-sysinfo0.1 libwinpr-thread0.1 libwinpr-utils0.1
libwmf0.2-7 libwnck-3-0 libwnck-3-common libxcb-composite0 libxcb-xv0
libxss1 libyaml-0-2 libzephyr4 lightdm-gtk-greeter
mobile-broadband-provider-info mousetweaks mythes-en-us obex-data-server
obexd-client pidgin-data python-cups python-cupshelpers python-dbus
python-dbus-dev python-gconf python-gi python-gi-cairo python-glade2
python-gobject python-libxml2 python-notify python-pycurl python-pyorbit
python-smbc python-talloc python-wicd python3-brlapi python3-cairo
python3-gi python3-louis python3-pyatspi python3-pyinotify python3-speechd
python3-xdg qdbus qt-at-spi qtchooser qtcore4-l10n rfkill rygel samba-libs
sane-utils system-config-printer system-config-printer-udev update-inetd
vlc-data vlc-nox vlc-plugin-notify vlc-plugin-samba wireless-regdb xbrlapi
xsane xsane-common
Use ‘apt-get autoremove’ to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
libqt5core5a libqt5dbus5 libqt5gui5 libqt5network5 libqt5widgets5
libxcb-icccm4 libxcb-image0 libxcb-render-util0 libxkbcommon-x11-0
qttranslations5-l10n transmission-qt
The following packages will be REMOVED:
accountsservice* apt-watch-backend* apt-watch-gnome* audacious*
audacious-plugins* avahi-daemon* bluez* bsdmainutils* bsdutils*
ca-certificates-java* consolekit* cups-pk-helper* dbus* dbus-x11* debhelper*
default-jre* default-jre-headless* dh-make* equivs* exo-utils* gconf2* gcr*
gdebi* gimp* gksu* gnome-commander* gnome-keyring* gnome-orca*
gnome-system-monitor* gnome-user-guide* gstreamer0.10-gconf*
gstreamer0.10-plugins-good* gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad*
gstreamer1.0-pulseaudio* icedtea-7-jre-jamvm* libaccountsservice0*
libapache2-mod-dnssd* libasound2-plugins* libbonoboui2-0* libcheese-gtk23*
libcheese7* libespeak1* libexo-1-0* libfarstream-0.1-0* libfluidsynth1*
libgegl-0.2-0* libgksu2-0* libgnome-2-0* libgnome2-0* libgnome2-bin*
libgnome2-common* libgnomeui-0* libgnomevfs2-0* libgnomevfs2-common*
libgnomevfs2-extra* libnss-mdns* libpolkit-agent-1-0* libpolkit-backend-1-0*
libpolkit-gobject-1-0* libpulse-mainloop-glib0* libpulse0* libpulsedsp*
libpurple-bin* libpurple0* libsdl-image1.2* libsdl1.2debian* libsystemd0*
libthunarx-2-0* libunique-1.0-0* libxfce4ui-1-0* libxfce4ui-utils*
libxfconf-0-2* lightdm* lintian* man-db* modemmanager* openjdk-7-jre*
openjdk-7-jre-headless* orage* pidgin* pulseaudio* pulseaudio-module-x11*
pulseaudio-utils* python-gnome2* realmd* ristretto* speech-dispatcher*
speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins* startupmanager* task-desktop*
task-xfce-desktop* thunar* thunar-archive-plugin* thunar-media-tags-plugin*
thunar-volman* transmission-gtk* updatemanager* upower* vlc* weston* wicd*
wicd-daemon* wicd-gtk* x11-apps* xfburn* xfce4* xfce4-appfinder*
xfce4-battery-plugin* xfce4-clipman* xfce4-clipman-plugin*
xfce4-cpufreq-plugin* xfce4-cpugraph-plugin* xfce4-datetime-plugin*
xfce4-dict* xfce4-diskperf-plugin* xfce4-fsguard-plugin*
xfce4-genmon-plugin* xfce4-goodies* xfce4-mailwatch-plugin* xfce4-mixer*
xfce4-mount-plugin* xfce4-netload-plugin* xfce4-notes* xfce4-notes-plugin*
xfce4-notifyd* xfce4-panel* xfce4-places-plugin* xfce4-power-manager*
xfce4-power-manager-plugins* xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin*
xfce4-screenshooter* xfce4-sensors-plugin* xfce4-session* xfce4-settings*
xfce4-smartbookmark-plugin* xfce4-systemload-plugin* xfce4-terminal*
xfce4-timer-plugin* xfce4-verve-plugin* xfce4-volumed* xfce4-wavelan-plugin*
xfce4-weather-plugin* xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin* xfce4-xkb-plugin* xfconf*
xfdesktop4* xfwm4* xfwm4-themes* xorg* yelp*
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libqt5core5a libqt5dbus5 libqt5gui5 libqt5network5 libqt5widgets5
libxcb-icccm4 libxcb-image0 libxcb-render-util0 libxkbcommon-x11-0
qttranslations5-l10n transmission-qt
WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
bsdutils libsystemd0 (due to bsdutils)
0 upgraded, 11 newly installed, 150 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 8,968 kB of archives.
After this operation, 269 MB disk space will be freed.
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To continue type in the phrase ‘Yes, do as I say!’
?]

No, this is not question…this is my wish, and I just dont want anything from systemd, not a single library…is that (my wish) ok?

As has been said above, GNOME requires logind, which is provided by systemd. I would suggest switching to Xfce or MATE if you do not want systemd.

If you don’t want anything from systemd, then you simply can’t use an unmodified version of Gnome, so you shouldn’t have a problem with removing all those packages from http://www.foss.rs/topic/2992-voting-about-systemd/page-2#entry48251

As you correctly observed, it is very hard to remove [FONT=‘courier new’]libsystemd0 in Debian Jessie (this is also documented on [/FONT]the page I linked to earlier https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#How_can_I_remove_any_traces_of_systemd_from_my_Jessie_system ). But that is simply the price you have to pay for using a binary distribution. If you want to control how all packages are built, you should use a source distribution like Gentoo.

A source distribution like Gentoo won’t help in this situation, unless you want a fairly broken GNOME?

Yes. I was talking about the programs linking against [FONT=‘courier new’]libsystemd (e.g. stuff in bsdutils). [/FONT]The Debian maintainers choose to build them with systemd compatibility enabled, and if you want to change that, you have to rebuild them. While it is possible to do this in Debian, it would be easier to do it in Gentoo.
Again: I see no technical reason why one would want to remove [FONT=‘courier new’]libsystemd0.[/FONT]

Frankly, the system that I use daily is unix, not linux at all :slight_smile:

[email protected]_oi:~$ more /etc/release
OpenIndiana Development oi_151.1.9 X86 (powered by illumos)
Copyright 2011 Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved.
Use is subject to license terms.
Assembled 17 January 2014
[email protected]_oi:~$ uname -a
SunOS dragan_oi 5.11 illumos-b998737 i86pc i386 i86pc


But…in our community, we have to worry about ordinary linux users, who do not know how to use source distributions :slight_smile:

So, how difficult is it to remove SMF on OpenIndiana?

Technical reasons are irrelevant, especially if linking against sistemd library is completely unnecessary and unjustified

Why do you think that linking against [FONT=‘courier new’]libsystemd is unnecessary and unjustified? And why do you think that your opinion matters more that that of the Debian maintainers of these packages?[/FONT]

Why would I want to do that? :slight_smile:
SMF is ordinary service manager…and not in PID1 :slight_smile:

OI has a classic init system, runlevels, inittab etc… :slight_smile:

And why would I want to remove systemd, if it isn’t even running?

I think that wheezy is still stable, and I think that linking bsdutils against systemd library for example is completely wrong :slight_smile:
Whats wrong with bsdutils in wheezy? :slight_smile:

Because I dont want unnecessary libraries in my system :slight_smile:

It would be great if we could have optional libraries, you might want to talk to the glibc folks about making that happen.